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  #1  
Old 31st December 2006, 02:29 PM
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hooligan666 hooligan666 is offline
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Here have some of this...

One of the most common questions new bike riders have is, “What kind of bike should I get?” This question is asked so often that I created a standardized response. Please keep in mind that these are the views and opinions of one person (albeit countless other also hold them) With that said, on we go…
Getting ANY modern 600cc sport bike for a first ride is a bad idea (far, far, far worse is a 1000cc). In fact, it may be nothing more than an expensive form of suicide. Here are a few reasons why;

1. Knowledge of Subject Matter
When anyone starts something new they find themselves at the most basic point of the “beginner’s mind”. This is to say that they are at the very start of the learning curve. They are not even aware of what it is that they don't know. A personal example of this is when I began Shotokan Karate. The first day of class I had no idea what an “inside-block” was, let alone how to do it with correct form, power, and consistency. After some time, and a lot of practice, I could only then realize how bad my form really was. Then, and only then, was I able to begin the process of improving it. I had to become knowledgeable that inside-blocks even existed before I was aware that I could not do them correctly. I had to learn what the correct elements of inside-block were, before I realized that I did not have those elements. After I learned, I was then able to aspire towards the proper elements. This example is to illustrate the point that it takes knowledge OF something in order to understand how that something works, functions, performs, etc. Now lets return to the world of motorcycles. A beginner has NO motorcycle experience. They are not even aware of the power, mistakes, handling, shifting, turning dynamics etc. of any bike, let alone a high performance sport bike. Not only does the beginner lack the SKILL of how to ride a motorcycle, they also lack the knowledge of WHAT skills they need to learn. Acquiring those skills comes only with experience and learning from mistakes. As one moves through the learning curve they begin to amass new information…they also make mistakes. A ton of them.

2. The Learning Curve
While learning to do something, your first efforts are often sloppy and full of mistakes. Without mistakes the learning process is impossible. A mistake on a sport bike can be fatal. The things new riders need to learn above all else is smooth throttle control, proper speed, and how to lean going into turns. A 600cc bike can reach 60mph in about 3 to 5 seconds. A simple beginners mishap with that much power and torque can cost you your life (or a few limbs) before you even knew what happened. Grab a handful of throttle going into a turn and you may end up crossing that little yellow line on the road into on-coming traffic…**shudder**. Bikes that are more forgiving of mistakes are far safer (not to mention, more fun) to learn on.
Ask yourself this question; in which manner would you rather learn to walk on a circus high-wire (1) with a 4x4 board that is 2 feet off the ground (2) with a wire that is 20 feet off the ground? Most sensible people would choose (1). The reason why is obvious. Unfortunately safety concerns with a first motorcycle aren’t as apparent as they are in the example above. However, the wrong choice of what equipment to learn on can be just as deadly, regardless of how safe, careful, and level-headed you intend to be.

3. “But I Will be Safe, Responsible, and Level-Headed While Learning".
Sorry, but this line of reasoning doesn’t cut it. To be safe you also need SKILL (throttle control, speed, leaning, etc). Skill comes ONLY with experience. To gain experience you must ride in real traffic, with real cars, and real dangers. Before that experience is developed, you are best suited with a bike that won’t severely punish you for minor mistakes. A cutting edge race bike is not one of these bikes.
Imagine someone saying, "I want to learn to juggle, but I’m going to start by learning with chainsaws. But don’t worry. I intend to go slow, be careful, stay level-headed, and respect the power of the chainsaws while I’m learning". Like the high-wire example, the proper route here isn’t hard to see. Be “careful” all you want, go as “slow” as you want, be as “cautious” as you want, be as “respectful” as you want…your still juggling chainsaws! The “level-headed” thing to do in this situation is NOT to start with chainsaws. Without a foundation in place of HOW to juggle there is only a small level of safety you can aspire towards. Plain and simple, it’s just better to learn juggling with tennis balls than it with chainsaws. The same holds true for learning to ride a motorcycle. Start with a solid foundation in the basics, and then move up. Many people say that “maturity” will help you be safe with motorcycles. They are correct. However, maturity has NOTHING to do with learning to ride a motorcycle. Maturity is what you SHOULD use when deciding what kind of bike to buy so that you may learn to ride a motorcycle safely.

4. “I Don’t Want a Bike I’ll Outgrow”
Please. Did your Momma put you in size 9 shoes at age 2? Get with the program. It is far better to maximize the performance of a smaller motorcycle and get “bored" with it than it is to mess-up your really fast bike (not mention messing yourself up) and not being able to ride at all. Power is nothing without control.

Part 5 to follow
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  #2  
Old 31st December 2006, 02:29 PM
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hooligan666 hooligan666 is offline
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5. “I Don’t Want to Waste Money on a Bike I’ll Only Have for a Short Period of Time” (i.e. cost)
Smaller, used bikes have and retain good resale value. This is because other sane people will want them as learner bikes. You’ll prolly be able to sell a used learner bike for as much as you paid for it. If you can't afford to upgrade in a year or two, then you definitely can't afford to wreck the bike your dreaming about. At the very least, most new riders drop bikes going under 20MPH, when the bike is at its most unstable periods. If you drop your brand new bike, fresh off the showroom floor, while your learning (and you will), you've just broken a directional, perhaps a brake or clutch lever, cracked / scrapped the fairings ($300.00 each to replace), messed-up the engine casing, messed-up the bar ends, etc. It's better and cheaper to drop a used bike that you don’t care about than one you just spent $8,500 on. Fortunately, most of these types of accidents do not result in serious physical injury. It’s usually just a big dent in your pride and…

6. EGO.
Worried about looking like chump on a smaller bike? Well, your gonna look like the biggest idiot ever on your brand new, but messed-up bike after you’ve dropped it a few times. You’ll also look really dumb with a badass race bike that you stall 15 times at a red light before you can get into gear. Or even better, how about a nice R6 that you can’t ride more than 15mph around a turn because you don’t know how to counter-steer correctly? Yeah, your gonna be really cool with that bike, huh? Any real rider would give you props for going about learning to ride the *correct* way (i.e. on a learner bike). If you’re stressed about impressing someone with a “cool” bike, or embarrassed about being on smaller bike, then your not “mature enough” to handle the responsibility of ANY motorcycle. Try a bicycle. After you've grow-up (“matured”), revisit the idea of something with an engine.

7. "Don’t Ask for Advice if You Don't Want to Hear a Real Answer".
A common pattern:
1. Newbie asks for advice on a 1st bike (Newbie wants to hear certain answers)
2. Experienced riders advise Newbie against a 600cc bike for a first ride (this is not what Newbie wanted to hear).
3. Newbie says and thinks, "Others mess up while learning, but that wont happen to me" (as if Newbie is invincible, holds superpowers, never makes mistakes, has a “level head”, or has a skill set that exceeds the majority of the world, etc).
4. Experienced riders explain why a “level head” isn’t enough. You also need SKILL, which can ONLY be gained via experience. (Newbie thinks he has innate motorcycle skills)
5. Newbie makes up excuses as to why he is “mature” enough to handle a 600cc bike”. (skill drives motorcycles, not maturity)
6. Newbie, with no knowledge about motorcycles, totally disregards all the advice he asked for in the first place. (which brings us right back to the VERY FIRST point I made about “knowledge of subject matter”).
7. Newbie goes out and buys a R6, CBR, GSX, 6R, etc. Newbie is scared of the power. Being scared of your bike is the LAST thing you want. Newbie gets turned-off to motorcycles, because of fear, and never gets to really experience all the fun that they can really be. Or worse, Newbie gets in a serious accident.
8. The truth of the matter is that Newbie was actually never really looking for serious advice. What he really wanted was validation and / or approval of a choice he was about to make or already had made. When he received real advice instead of validation he became defensive about his ability to handle a modern sport bike as first ride (thus defending the choice he had made). Validation of a poor decision isn’t going to replace scratched bodywork on your bike. It isn’t going put broken bones back together. It isn’t going graft shredded skin back onto your body. It isn’t going to teach you to ride a motorcycle the correct way. However, solid advice from experienced riders, when heeded, can help to avoid some of these issues.
I’m not trying to be harsh. I’m being real. Look all over the net. You’ll see veteran after veteran telling new riders NOT to get a 600cc bike for a first ride. You’ll even see pros saying to start small. Why? Because we hate new riders? Because we don't want others to have cool bikes? Because we want to smash your dreams? Nothing could be further from the truth. The more riders the better (assuming there not squids)! The reason people like me and countless others spend so much time trying to dissuade new riders from 600cc bikes is because we actually care about you. We don't want to see people get hurt. We don't want to see more people die in senseless accidents that could have been totally avoided with a little logic and patients. We want the “sport” to grow in a safe, healthy, and sane way. We want you to be around to ride that R6, CBR600RR, GSX-1000, Habayasu, etc that you desire so badly. However, we just want you to be able to ride it in a safe manner that isn’t going to be a threat to yourself or others. A side note, you may see people on the net and elsewhere saying “600cc bike are OK to start with”. Look a bit deeper when you see this. The vast majority of people making these statements are new riders* themselves. If you follow their advice you’ve entered into a situation of the blind leading the blind. This is not something you want to do with motorcycles. You may also hear bike dealers saying that a 600cc is a good starter bike. They are trying to make money off you. Don’t listen. *(I consider anyone with under 30,000 miles a noobie)

I will get me coat....
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  #3  
Old 31st December 2006, 08:02 PM
Evo7 Evo7 is offline
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Cheers for the reply, advice was very good. You have put alot of time into that. Very informative.
I think I havnt explained myself properly, Im not a new comer to bikes. Ive had motorcross bikes for years, ive been riding bikes sence i was 17. Ive had a moped aswell, I know go on slag away moped, ha ha ha. I hired a ninja in thailand for 5days. The best thing i ever done and now I have the bug. any way back to my point. if there is any info you can offer on my origianl point that would be great.

Thanks
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  #4  
Old 1st January 2007, 02:58 PM
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Idleater Idleater is offline
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Originally Posted by hooligan666
2. Experienced riders advise Newbie against a 600cc bike for a first ride (this is not what Newbie wanted to hear).
Erm, those are all entirely valid points, but you failed to mention anything about either the licencing restriction OR the bike restriction.

Any newbie can go out and legally buy a 600 supersports bike, and restrict it.
Then all it comes down to is if they can afford the insurance or not.

A cheaper way to start on a 600 is to buy a Factory Restricted one.

Still everything you say about learning, experience etc is entirely valid.

L.
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  #5  
Old 4th January 2007, 12:14 AM
Motarirl Motarirl is offline
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These are very good points Hooligan666.
Although I use to do a lot of bicycle I decided the first thing was to get the right advice and habbits first so I went to the ISM for lessons. Told them I'm brand new novice re bikes. So I did approx 10 hrs - a bit nerve racking at first on out on the road - but I remembered what he taught me in the yard before and he took it easy. My car driving experience was usefull too.

But one thing I didn't expected to learn was to improve my car driving skills too. Cos I found to be more alert in the car since I ride a bike.

And although I was taught on a normal bike (suzuki Marauder 250) with manual gears - I wanted first to get used to the "mad" dublin traffic so I went for an automatic scooter (Aplilia Atlantic 500). But before finishing with the ISM I went to do the Aon Assessment with them and missed the grade 3 by 3 points -I was delighted on my first run as a beginer-.

I have to say so far it's proven to be a great choice as I didn't have to worry about stoling the bike or gears in traffic. And the Atlantic is very comfy, has enough power and has brilliant fairing - And from my experience so far I would recommend it.

As per Hooligan666 I'm still novice -less than 30k miles-. And I would agree with his point re being in control of the bike not the other way around. Cos it's your skills and confidence which are going to get you out of tricky situation not having a nice bike. And although I found it a bit heavy at first I learnt to enjoy the weight and appreciate it's power, even though I never pushed further than 60-70 km/h. I enjoy the smooth ride and the feeling of being "safe" in contol...

And love the storage space too. But now after riding it for 5/6 months I've looking to move to an actual bike with gears. Not sure yet what I'm gona get but I am happy about my choice so far.

It's about feeling safe, in control so your mind is more focus on what's around you not on the actual bike.

Hope this helps new comers like me...

fyi the aprilia Atlantic 500 is a scooter and is learner friendly - ie no need to be restricted unlike Nexus or T-max...
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  #6  
Old 22nd January 2007, 03:02 AM
petecourtney petecourtney is offline
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Originally Posted by Idleater
Erm, those are all entirely valid points, but you failed to mention anything about either the licencing restriction OR the bike restriction.
It's an American article, I presume they have different licencing laws over there.

Originally Posted by Motarirl
These are very good points Hooligan666. But one thing I didn't expected to learn was to improve my car driving skills too. Cos I found to be more alert in the car since I ride a bike.
I found this when I got bike training too. It seems that when you get lessons in a car you're just being shown how to pass the driving test, when you get lessons on a bike you're learning so much more. That was my experience anyway.

Pete.
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  #7  
Old 25th March 2007, 05:17 AM
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eadyzrx1200 eadyzrx1200 is offline
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good to see someone give good advise. I was on bikes for 18yrs then off them for 8 thanks to the wife when i came back to them i got a zrx 1200 an
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  #8  
Old 25th March 2007, 01:32 PM
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rendex rendex is offline
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although its on a sticky on a thread of mine, i think its worth mentioning here as well that a person buying a bike for the A class licence will need to have a bike below 33bhp AND also below the power to weight ratio. if you buy a bike that is over 1 of these criteria you will need to get it restricted to stay legal. though this eu law isn't strictly enforced, many are complacent and/or genuinely ignorant to believe it's either 1 or the other. (ref my signature!) It may come back to haunt a person that has an "illegal" bike when the insurance company does not pay out?
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  #9  
Old 2nd May 2007, 08:20 AM
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gatchmaster gatchmaster is offline
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Originally Posted by rendex
although its on a sticky on a thread of mine, i think its worth mentioning here as well that a person buying a bike for the A class licence will need to have a bike below 33bhp AND also below the power to weight ratio. if you buy a bike that is over 1 of these criteria you will need to get it restricted to stay legal. though this eu law isn't strictly enforced, many are complacent and/or genuinely ignorant to believe it's either 1 or the other. (ref my signature!) It may come back to haunt a person that has an "illegal" bike when the insurance company does not pay out?
Bingo! So you are very limited as to which bikes fall into this category. An insurance company will give you a quote for a bike you are not legally allowed to drive such as a bandit 600. So you have to reign yourself in and go for a 33BHP max.
This leaves you with most 125 and 250 bikes. I think some 2 strokes in the 250 class are well over the 33BHP so check before hand. Also some 400cc can fit into this 33BHP group.
Biggest name here being the Honda Bros.
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Old 22nd May 2007, 12:02 PM
markant markant is offline
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Well said hooligan666 im a first time biker and totally agree with your advice although im not into race type bikes anyway you would have to be completely reckless with your life to think you can handle these types of bike first thing.I hope more newbies heed your advice and go into biking the proper sensible and safe way start small and grow with time patience and practice. And remember be careful out there
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  #11  
Old 2nd August 2007, 12:21 AM
marcus2wheels marcus2wheels is offline
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I am a newbie. I will go to the ism for some lessons.im 34, looking to get a bike can anyone recommended some good starter bikes? not too dear about 1500euro or so.The bike i would love is the honda blackbird.Someday THANKS.
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Old 2nd August 2007, 04:11 AM
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Bozwell Bozwell is offline
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Originally Posted by marcus2wheels
I am a newbie. I will go to the ism for some lessons.im 34, looking to get a bike can anyone recommended some good starter bikes? not too dear about 1500euro or so.The bike i would love is the honda blackbird.Someday THANKS.
Welcome to Marcus.

First post an Introduction in the Introductions Section and then post a thread in the First time bikers section. You will then get more replies and help as this reply of yours may get lost as it is someone else's thread. Tell people what style of bike your looking for also.

Best of luck and enjoy the craic here
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  #13  
Old 2nd August 2007, 11:45 AM
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decos-cbr decos-cbr is offline
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Yep your better off starting small and working your way up to a bigger bike.
you wont enjoy a powerful bike if you cant ride it properly
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  #14  
Old 4th September 2007, 07:27 PM
ROYALFOGO ROYALFOGO is offline
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Default Seeking to buy!

Hello all1 I am looking to buy a 250cc bike...I have a crusier type model in mind..YamahViagra or preferably the Dragstar 250cc...I last rode a bile almost 17 years ago...a Suzuli GP100....I plan to take lessosn etc...any suggestions...?

Cheers
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  #15  
Old 5th September 2007, 12:51 AM
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olderbutwiser olderbutwiser is offline
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Fantastic post.

I've been there done that. My first bike was a Suzuki M31 scooter (think Nifty Fifty but made by Suzuki). Rode it for a few years and decided to get a proper bike. Lashed out for a Suzuki RG125, second hand. 33bhp on tap in the grubby mits of an 19 year old

200 yards from the previous owners house I discovered that breaking mid bend as you could do on the moped (at low speeds) caused the bike to straighten up! Cue underwear change and close view of parked cars.

Two days later slowly gaining confidence and convinced of my own superiority I tried to drag race a bloke on a Kawasaki AR125. Got up through first, grabbed neutral instead of second, damm near put the piston up through the petrol tank and in my haste to get into gear knocked into fifth or fourth and released the clutch. With predictable results. Guy on AR125 trying not to fall off laughing.

About a week later bimbling around on a back road I discovered that although an RG125 had a huge amount of ground clearance (55 degree lean if I remember) , chickening out mid bend and grabbing the brakes isn't a smart move. Fortunately I was doing about 30 a and slid into the greenery as did the bike.

I've done the mad overtake of an artic, run out of steam, will I wont I will I bugger hit the breaks and dive back in just about time.

Grabbed a handful of revs popped the clutch, lifted the wheel, got second, third, wheel drops still doing 10 miles an hour while bike is doing 60. Waaaaaa!

Cracked open the throttle too hard too soon exiting a bend.

I'm lucky. In my first year I survived my stupidity. My only bang afterwards was diesel on a roundabout on a dry day.Could barely stand up on the bloody stuff.

It wasn't any super riding skill on my part that kept me in one piece in the early years, it was pure luck.

Bikes are fun. They are also lethal.

No experience on a powerful bike is just a different form of Russian Roulette.

OBW
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  #16  
Old 5th September 2007, 12:59 AM
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olderbutwiser olderbutwiser is offline
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Oh and as a returning biker after a 12-15 year break with 10 years of solid biking over 120,000 miles in the UK I'm treating being back on a bike very cautiously.

Hence the budget starts with 1k for helmet, jocks (armoured) pants boots and gloves.

A futher 600-1000 on a refresher course, pre test course and possibly a second pre test course.

The bike budget is the part I'll wiggle on. The above is mandatory for me.

I don't bounce too well anymore

OBW
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  #17  
Old 5th September 2007, 01:17 AM
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325sport 325sport is offline
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Originally Posted by olderbutwiser
Oh and as a returning biker after a 12-15 year break with 10 years of solid biking over 120,000 miles in the UK I'm treating being back on a bike very cautiously.

Hence the budget starts with 1k for helmet, jocks (armoured) pants boots and gloves.

A futher 600-1000 on a refresher course, pre test course and possibly a second pre test course.

The bike budget is the part I'll wiggle on. The above is mandatory for me.

I don't bounce too well anymore

OBW
Fair play to you for getting back to biking in a sensible way,you're right to spend as much as you can afford on the gear.And the courses,they can improve even experienced bikers everyday riding.I did the aon course myself and am glad i did.
Im glad i did'nt get my first bike till i was 25 in a way because if i started at 17 i dont know if id be around today!
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Old 1st December 2007, 11:15 PM
grigoras<geordano> grigoras<geordano> is offline
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Default Re: Buying 1st bike or upgrading to new machine?

hi ! i am geordano .
nice to see all of os
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Old 1st December 2007, 11:15 PM
grigoras<geordano> grigoras<geordano> is offline
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Biker.ie Member No. 7487 from dublin
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it is some one online ?
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  #20  
Old 6th May 2008, 11:15 AM
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RoofRider RoofRider is offline
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Default Re: Buying 1st bike or upgrading to new machine?

well, I am about to get my first bike soon, I was thinking about 250cc but here comes trouble :-)

when I start to check bike specifications I have find out that for example Hornet250 is arround 29kW (should be 25kW). Another thing VTR250 is just perfect!!! 32bhp but... again pain in arss to get parts... So what 2F.. should I get (I do not like cruisers) I was thinking about something like hornet bandit etc.. get hornet 250 and put restrictor on it?
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