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  #21  
Old 9th February 2018, 07:15 PM
Budthewiser's Avatar
Budthewiser Budthewiser is offline
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Biker.ie Member No. 22146 from Drogheda
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Default Re: MotoGP Launches Electric Racing Championship

If i had the money i'd buy an electric bike tomorrow, as long as it was powerful enough and didn't look shit. Maybe a Lightning LS-218, fast fast bike and looks the dogs..........and environmentally clean with regard to emotions, not sure how environmentally friendly the manufacturing process is............. Looking forward to MOTO GP electric.


https://www.irishtimes.com/news/envi...year-1.3281031

Last edited by Budthewiser; 9th February 2018 at 07:16 PM.
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  #22  
Old 10th February 2018, 10:41 AM
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robbiec robbiec is offline
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Default Re: MotoGP Launches Electric Racing Championship

as soon as electric bikes piss all over petrol bikes performance wise on the track and I predict they will its over. Also anyone who calls it global warming doesnt know what theyr talkin about and anyone who doesnt believe it with all the cold facts that dont make it into the tabloids has theyr head in the clouds. Even if it was close to a 50/50 call we dont have a spare planet just in case, even if it was unlikely to happen we still shouldnt risk it, I dont understand the mentality.
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  #23  
Old 10th February 2018, 08:51 PM
faz1 faz1 is offline
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Default Re: MotoGP Launches Electric Racing Championship

Originally Posted by Spoonman
So your assertions are based on an article which is almost a decade old?

A decade in which we've seen drastic improvements wrt battery charge acceptace rates, thermal stability and life cycle degredation; and where, whilst to date the energy density gains have been modest (at about 50% up on what we had in 2010), the cost is *WAY* down and there is significant progress being made into electrode architectures based on the profound increase in our understanding of the processes surrounding electrically reversible reactions.

We're advancing, at pace, on a whole raft of fronts, any one of which could produce efficacy gains the likes of which the combustion engine couldn't even imagine.

Now don't get me wrong, progress is being made on HFC's as well, and China are throwing huge effort into improving the power density, response characteristics, and precious metal content; and with some success it must be noted - but what you don't see spoken about so much are the efficiency (and not even the 'well2wheel' efficiency, I'm talking tank to wheel), and service life figures. Either of which, on their own, would negate any competitiveness against current battery solutions.

The simple truth about HFC's is that they're a bloody expensive way to convert energy, but one which works incredibly well where you've got a space constrained power demand in an inhostpitable environment - ie: in Space and under water - because you can breath one of the fuel components, you can drink the byproduct, and the waste heat generated during recombination can be used for environmental conditioning and hot water demand.

Outside of that, they're relatively big, very expensive in themselves, expensive to make fuel for (and environmentally questionably where natural gas is employed as the hydrogen feedstock), require significant energy to store that fuel, and at the end of all that - they have a relatively limited service life.

I can definitely see them finding application in shipping and stationary CHP in areas with high solar insolation, and I can see them as a component in a hybrid powertrain for locomotives, large trucks, and maybe large agri-machinery - but in a world where the first 1000km capable electric truck is (even pessimistically) 5 years away, I simply do not see the demand being there to warrant the effort of developing them for private transport roles; particularly given the absence of any distribution infrastructure whatsoever.

The only credible argument against batteries at present is to do with the sourcing of cobalt - people focus on the lithium but that's nonesense, lithim is one of the most abundant elements on the planet - the cobalt however is in far shorter supply and tends to be mined in very unsustainable fashions. One of the main focuses in battery research at present is reducing or replacing the cobalt required for the cathode. Another of the fields of significant attention is the use of silicon instead of, or more likely along with, traditional carbon in the anode.

Now all of the above being said - HFC's do have one significant advantage over Batteries, but it's not a functional one, it's a policy point. In a 'Hydrogen' economy, the application is predefined and readily seperable from other elements of the economy. This is not the case for batteries. There's a big hit to the exchequer coming down the line as fossil fuels are replaced with ...well, anything else; and here, the battery's greatest advantage also becomes its weakness - and that is that there is no way to tax electricity for transport applications easily. Hydrogen, with it's dedicated, centralised, and most importantly *entirely regulatable* distribution system means that the system we have right now could simply carry on - and politically, that's a seriously strong argument. However it's not necessarily all that relevent either as BEV's are here and progressing right now, whilst there are only two HFC vehicle in the market right now (the Mirai and the Clarity) and both, although they don't advertise it, have batteries in the region of 1.5-2kWh tucked away in there to make up for the issues with power density and response rate inherent in the HFC.
HFC's ? who needs air con on a bike?
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  #24  
Old 11th February 2018, 08:41 PM
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Spoonman Spoonman is offline
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Biker.ie Member No. 1842 from Westmeath
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Default Re: MotoGP Launches Electric Racing Championship

Originally Posted by Dub Duke
If battery vehicles were really viable, it would have taken off before now. Just plugging a hole at the moment.
The >243000km I've covered in a BEV since 2012 leads me to believe that, yet again, you're wrong.

Originally Posted by faz1
HFC's ? who needs air con on a bike?
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  #25  
Old 11th February 2018, 11:04 PM
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Default Re: MotoGP Launches Electric Racing Championship

243k km / 150k miles over 6 years - c.20k miles a year in an EV, that's some serious mileage. Curious - what kind of machine is that Spoonman ?
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  #26  
Old 12th February 2018, 11:54 AM
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Spoonman Spoonman is offline
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Biker.ie Member No. 1842 from Westmeath
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Motorbike: '87 NC24; '98 TL1000S
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Default Re: MotoGP Launches Electric Racing Championship

A four wheeled one - so I daren't speak farther.
(Rhymes with 'Beef' though. )

It was doing >1000km/week for the first 4 years, and then our circumstances changed so we don't do nearly as much anymore - only doing about a third of that these days which is great. I've never regretted buying it, and I'd never go back - instant torque coupled with the smoothness of the ride makes *anything* else feel sluggish and/or rough.

My petrol spend when we bought it was €420/month and I'd €330/month finance at the time. Changed to €420/month finance and €80/month extra on the electricity bill. So over the 5 years of the finance it actually covered >70% of its purchase price, factoring in electricity cost, in what I didn't have to spend on petrol; and in all that time the only maintenance required was tires and wiper blades once a year - it didn't even need brake pads until 210000km and at that they probably had another years service in them if I'd been that way inclined.

Now the downsides:
(1) It is limited on the flexibility front - we bought it as a commuting machine and it's absolutely perfect for that (to the extent that you'd be utterly daft not to have one if you're a regular out-and-back commuter!); but the gen1 model are *not* for people who don't want to have have to think about how far they need to go in the day. New gen's are *much* more potent in this regard and by the end of this year there'll be plenty of options with >250km/charge.

(2) Resale value on the early ones is near nothing - this is improving all the time but I knew when I bough it that I was married to it, and that was fine by me. Best I'd get for it at present is scrappage value, there's absolutely zero residual value the Gen1's.

(3) Gen1 battery degredation has proven itself to be as much to do with the age of the battery as it is to do with use, the subsequent Gen1.5 and current batteries are *FAR* superior. We were down by about 15% by 150000km, and I've seen reports on the latest batteries of people being at that with less than 5% capacity loss - which is a *HUGE* deal. Truth is though, at my sort of mileage even if I had needed to buy a new battery from schmissan, I'd still have been winning over the cost of petrol of diesel, but at lower mileages that might not be the case although I'd struggle to find a case where you wouldn't still be breaking even at least.


Bottom line, I'll buy or build an electric commuter as soon as I can!

I've already got one electric testbed in the shed (CBR600F2 with 2 forktruck motors and ~1kWh of Lipo) and it's a fun proof of concept; and I've done battery refits to a couple of Vectrix scooters (which, incidentally, are actually pretty decent, and very capable suburban machines); but if I'd €10-13k to spend I'd build a Blackbird or a Busa. Reckon I could put 160km range into that with respectable torque, and gear it to be comfortable at 140-150km/hr, maxing out somewhere near 180km/hr. I also reckon I could keep the mass centralised enough that the handling would remain about the same as stock. I'd like to make it belt drive though (chain is wayyy too noisy in the absence of engine noise) which could be a challenge.

Last edited by Spoonman; 12th February 2018 at 11:56 AM.
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  #27  
Old 12th February 2018, 12:06 PM
-alan-'s Avatar
-alan- -alan- is offline
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Default Re: MotoGP Launches Electric Racing Championship

Thanks man.

Been doing the sums on the whole (ahem..non 2 wheel) annualised running costs thing myself. Hard to get a decent impartial view on EVs. Wouldn't mind picking your brains a little further on the costs/residuals if you were open to it ? (by pm, off here, obviously :)
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  #28  
Old 12th February 2018, 01:45 PM
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Spoonman Spoonman is offline
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Biker.ie Member No. 1842 from Westmeath
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Default Re: MotoGP Launches Electric Racing Championship

Originally Posted by -alan-
Thanks man.

Been doing the sums on the whole (ahem..non 2 wheel) annualised running costs thing myself. Hard to get a decent impartial view on EVs. Wouldn't mind picking your brains a little further on the costs/residuals if you were open to it ? (by pm, off here, obviously :)
No bother man, actually did up a spreadsheet at the time myself - if I can find it I'll give it to you if it's any use.
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  #29  
Old 12th February 2018, 01:58 PM
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renniks renniks is offline
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Default Re: MotoGP Launches Electric Racing Championship

The Irish govt are hardly encouraging people to move to EV, as they'd be doing themselves out of all that lovely duty on petrol/diesel.
Same way they don't really want people to stop smoking cos of all the duty they'd lose out on
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  #30  
Old 12th February 2018, 02:52 PM
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-alan- -alan- is offline
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Default Re: MotoGP Launches Electric Racing Championship

Originally Posted by Spoonman
No bother man, actually did up a spreadsheet at the time myself - if I can find it I'll give it to you if it's any use.
Be interested for sure - I've done one up for variously fuelled vehicles/tax-rates, annual mileage but not seriously considered an EV option yet. Even seeing how somebody else has approached the sums would be good

I'll pm you Spoonman - and thanks
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  #31  
Old 12th February 2018, 03:07 PM
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Spoonman Spoonman is offline
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Biker.ie Member No. 1842 from Westmeath
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Modifications: TLS: M4 system, PCII, K&N, GI-pro ATRE, c/f hugger
Default Re: MotoGP Launches Electric Racing Championship

Originally Posted by renniks
The Irish govt are hardly encouraging people to move to EV, as they'd be doing themselves out of all that lovely duty on petrol/diesel.
Same way they don't really want people to stop smoking cos of all the duty they'd lose out on
You'd be very well justified in taking that stance were you to judge by the state of the national charging infrastructure and the absence of any credible uptake by any state bodies or figureheads. It's not actually the case though. H2020 is looming, and whilst we're reasonably on track where emissions from electricity generation is concerned, we're WAYYY behind on transport and agricultural targets - and the fines impending on that account promise to put a proper dent in 'the good' of those exchequer numbers which would be lost by adoption of EV's in quantities sufficient meet the targets; so despite all appearances they do actually want them in the mix. The target is for 10% of transport energy to come from renewable sources but that's not to say that we need 10% electrification of the national fleet - the Luas upgrades are a big part of that, and now Dublin bus are (finally) starting to look at plug-in hybrids; Taxi's are due some concessions in the coming months as well I'm lead to believe, and all of this contributes.

So the picture at the moment is that they made a balls of getting people to make the switch in time for these deadlines in the first place, and they're trying to get there in other ways now. To be a little fairer though, it was ambitious, and the latter half of this year will, I expect, be the beginning of the shift-proper. Not for motorbikes just yet (although the vectrix, as mentioned, should be a serious consideration for the suburban dweller), but there are credible offerings in every other space now.
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