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  #181  
Old 15th July 2017, 01:04 PM
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Default Re: Another BMW recall (2003-2011 bikes)

Originally Posted by Holy Moly
Looks like the fork tube should've been held in a rose joint, pivot or something to allow for the movement it obviously goes under at the top yoke. That lever works in an arc. In time they will all break. Off-road bikes they are not, if that set up was so good, you'd see variations of them on factory MXGP bikes, which you don't.
I presume the design is purely to stop anti-diving under braking, like the way a wishbone suspension keeps the cars wheel / surface area completely level rather than going onto the edge of it's tyre when it pivots under load while cornering, but obviously this BMW doesn't have the top 'wishbone' section so I'd assume,... - it does have a ball-joint type / flexible rubber connection where it's going to pivot (however minutely over time) at that top junction, otherwise possibly leading to metal fatigue if fixed completely solid / not designed to move, they can't be that stupid.

Eitherway, it's 'sell, sell, sell' time as these BMW's will be worth about as much as a used tampon very shortly.
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  #182  
Old 15th July 2017, 01:58 PM
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Default Re: Another BMW recall (2003-2011 bikes)

There are rose joints in the top yoke to allow for the arc of the wishbone. The stanchion cap goes through the rose joint and the failure looks to be below that on the stanchion tube.
It looks like the stanchion tube just isn't strong enough to take the additional lateral load. Maybe it's too thin with the threads cut or maybe the material isn't strong enough. Maybe both.

So many other bikes using a standard front end for decades without this sort of failure. If it aint broke...........
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  #183  
Old 15th July 2017, 03:22 PM
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Default Re: Another BMW recall (2003-2011 bikes)

To save me reading the small print, has there been any issues with the K1200/K1300 Duolever? It doesn't have the fake fork tubes, instead having a more solid looking trailing links.
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  #184  
Old 15th July 2017, 04:04 PM
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Default Re: Another BMW recall (2003-2011 bikes)

Originally Posted by Dirtyshirt
To save me reading the small print, has there been any issues with the K1200/K1300 Duolever? It doesn't have the fake fork tubes, instead having a more solid looking trailing links.
Great system, no issues, Completely different.
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  #185  
Old 15th July 2017, 04:15 PM
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Default Re: Another BMW recall (2003-2011 bikes)

Originally Posted by eyore
Great system, no issues, Completely different.
Yes this affects the watercooled 1200's. Or toilets as they are also known
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  #186  
Old 16th July 2017, 12:26 AM
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Default Re: Another BMW recall (2003-2011 bikes)

Originally Posted by Frisco
There are rose joints in the top yoke to allow for the arc of the wishbone. The stanchion cap goes through the rose joint and the failure looks to be below that on the stanchion tube.
It looks like the stanchion tube just isn't strong enough to take the additional lateral load. Maybe it's too thin with the threads cut or maybe the material isn't strong enough. Maybe both.

So many other bikes using a standard front end for decades without this sort of failure. If it aint broke...........
Not familiar with the 2 wheeled BMW, the 4wheel ones cost a bomb to run, proper ones do anyway. As there is a rose joint in there, as long as it's got enough range of motion, then it has to be as you say - the material is too weak, which is a bad design flaw. Imagine that folding on you dropping off a curb while trying to impress your favourite barista.
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  #187  
Old 17th July 2017, 02:54 PM
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Default Re: Another BMW recall (2003-2011 bikes)

youd wonder will it lead to mechanics refusing to go near them . its become a long list of shit that commonly goes wrong , I can see bmw starting to blame the torque settings (remember the rear wheel recall) or the try avoid the blame by saying if it wasnt looked at by a bmw mechanic then they are absolved of blame . if ever there was a sector that will look to pin blame on the last guy that done the forkseals then thisi is it lol.
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  #188  
Old 17th July 2017, 03:12 PM
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Default Re: Another BMW recall (2003-2011 bikes)

I can definitely see them claiming that bmw dealers would have checked the rose joints.
Id say its very likely that the rose joints binding (something they are known for) is the cause of this issue
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  #189  
Old 17th July 2017, 03:17 PM
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Default Re: Another BMW recall (2003-2011 bikes)

Originally Posted by Frisco
I can definitely see them claiming that bmw dealers would have checked the rose joints.
Id say its very likely that the rose joints binding (something they are known for) is the cause of this issue
no, even if rose joint works fine there a lot of force on the front and back of that tube because of the design .
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  #190  
Old 17th July 2017, 04:11 PM
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Default Re: Another BMW recall (2003-2011 bikes)

From BIKESOCIAL UK

https://www.bennetts.co.uk/bikesocia...-safety-recall

Have a look at the comments on their site at the bottom of the article....






BMW Motorrad UK has issued a fork stanchion safety recall for all R1200 GS and GS Adventure models built between November 2013 and June 2017, in an escalation of BMW’s service campaign begun last week. All owners will be contacted and asked to take their bikes to a BMW dealer for the recall work.
Click the image to open in full size.

BMW’s recall notice does not require owners stop riding immediately (unlike BMW’s 2014 R1200RT rear suspension recall) and, despite the nature of the problem potentially leading to a catastrophic failure of the forks and the front of the bike collapsing while being ridden, it suggests BMW is confident there’s little or no risk of imminent danger.

“There have been no warranty claims in the UK [from GS or GS Adventure] customers,” said BMW’s spokesperson.

The R1200 GS, on sale in its current guise since early 2013, is not just Britain’s most popular bike, but the best selling BMW worldwide: last year BMW sold over 25,000 GSs, nearly 20% of their overall sales, and the GS Adventure added another 21,000. Total sales of all affected bikes stands at around 168,500 units.

What’s the problem?

BMW’s recall notice is specific about the details of the issue, saying that “unusual incidents with momentary high stress” – in other words, very big bumps – can cause the press-fitted fork stanchion ‘plug’ (that locates in a rubber bush in the top yoke) to generate play between itself and the top of the stanchion tube – presumably as repeated shocks stress the plug either from side to side or up and down.

It’s a bit like wedging a metal bung in a vacuum cleaner tube, then repeatedly hitting it with a hammer. The tube will spread and expand around the bung, and eventually the bung will come loose. When that happens to a fork stanchion, the front of the bike will collapse with a loss of steering, suspension and control.

Click the image to open in full size.


Can I tell if I have a problem?

Depends who you ask. According to BMW’s recall notice, “...preliminary damage to the fixed fork tube manifests itself through a gap between the pipe and the pressed-in, top seal plugs.”

What it doesn’t say is this gap is a) shrouded by a rubber sleeve and b) is out of spec when it’s only around 0.2mm – so you need a feeler gauge to measure it.
BMW go on to say, “...the gap may increase through longer, high-stress usage. This may lead to oil leaks and noise. If these signals are not perceived, or are ignored, and further high-stress incidents occur, the plug may become completely loose.”

BikeSocial has spoken to several GS owners and expert GS riders who say if you aren’t specifically listening and feeling for the problem, you’re unlikely to notice it until either nothing happens or your forks fall off.


What’s BMW’s solution?

First, your dealer will measure for wear or play between the alloy insert plug at the top of the stanchion and the fork tube. If there is none, a special tool press-fits a reinforcing steel sleeve over the stanchion top, with the idea of effectively preventing any wear and build-up of play.

If either fork legs are showing signs of wear, the both legs will be replaced with a pair that already have the steel sleeves fitted.

Click the image to open in full size.


My R1200 GS was built before November 2013? Is that affected?

No. Only GS and GS Adventures built after November 2013 to date are affected.


My R1200 GS was built after November 2013? Why is different, then?

BMW have been asked by BikeSocial for an official explanation; as soon as we have it, we’ll publish it.

In the meantime, finding out why early GSs are unaffected is a matter of deduction and speculation. The R1200 GS was launched at the start of 2013. By November 2013, a series of revisions were made to the bike to coincide with the launch of the Adventure model. Among these was the addition of a steering damper.

The damper was added, at least unofficially, to address concerns the GS could suffer issues with straight line stability – which themselves followed on the heels of the tragic death of respected journalist Kevin Ash during the bike’s launch, and subsequent stories – some verified with snapped lock-stops – of unexpected and unexplained tank slappers.

But other changes were made too. Comparisons of part numbers between the early 2013 bikes and later bikes show the fork inners and outers, top and bottom yokes, rear shock and rear torque arm strut are all different specification.

It seems logical, via a process of elimination, that the current fork problem is most likely to be an unforeseen consequence related to these changes rather than an issue with a change of materials or a design flaw.

For example, one idea behind the GS’ Telelever concept was originally to maintain steering geometry during braking. The degree to which it does this (or not; some dive is desirable for ‘feel’) can be adjusted according to the geometry of the wishbone or ‘front swingarm’.

But Telelever also decouples suspension forces and steering – bump forces are fed into the chassis via the wishbone, leaving the handlebars free to do only the steering. That’s why the GS doesn’t need a heavily braced headstock at the steering stem, unlike a conventionally forked bike. And it’s also why the GS’ forks don’t need to be rigidly clamped in a deep top yoke but instead locate via a short rod into rubber bushes in the yoke.

But if, say, BMW fit a stronger spring to the rear shock or alter its length to stabilise the bike, or reengineer the front end to accommodate a steering damper, it’s plausible to imagine even a slight increase in suspension force transmitted into the steering could, over time, lead to unexpected wear in that area.

Click the image to open in full size.


But that was over two years ago. Wouldn’t BMW be aware of it before now?

They were. In December 2015 South African Tony Georgiou, 59, bought a new BMW R1200 GS Adventure. Six months and 8500 miles later he was riding off-road along a gravel trail, travelling at around 28mph, when – in his words – “the front of my bike collapsed and I hit the ground heavily.” From the resulting loss of control and crash, Mr Georgiou was hospitalised with his injuries.

A rider ahead of Mr Georgiou (also on a GS) was filming the ride and the ruts across the trail that triggered his front end failure can clearly be seen.

A cursory investigation showed the fork stanchions had separated from the top yoke insert. After inspection by his dealer in South Africa, the damaged front end of Mr Georgiou’s bike was returned to BMW in Germany for examination in October 2016.

It wasn’t until June this year Mr Georgiou got a reply, from BMW South Africa, which he says concluded “...that the stanchion separation was as a result of an impact and that it had nothing to do with the design or manufacture of the front forks.”

Mr Georgiou didn’t settle for that, believed BMW were negligent in admitting liability, and began a campaign to alert other GS owners to the potential failure. His actions led first to a local recall, then a global ‘safety campaign’, and finally this full-scale recall.

There have been other anecdotal incidents, including one alleged crash in Portugal in identical circumstances. A bookface group has been set up, and stories of other failures are emerging. There have also been off-the-record acknowledgments by sources within the industry that fork separation has long been a significant issue requiring routine maintenance and monitoring on GSs used for off-road schools. One even went so far as to say, “Knowing what I know and having seen some of these bikes, I wouldn’t brake hard into a hairpin. It’s a scandal BMW haven’t addressed this long ago.”

So why didn’t BMW do something sooner?

They probably should have if only for safety’s sake – but also, from a PR perspective, the current recall looks like a belated reaction to customer pressure rather than a proactive step.

And it’s not as if BMW don’t have a track record of acting quickly and decisively when they need to issue a safety recall – and they also have a reputation for excellent customer service.

But when a problem such as this crops up certain procedures will be followed: identify the issue, determine if it’s user-related, determine the likelihood of it being an isolated case or indicative of a larger problem, engineer and test a counter-measure, and develop a strategy for communicating it and acting on it. None of this happens overnight.

Click the image to open in full size.

Should I feel safe now I’ve had the fork mod?

BikeSocial reader Toby Mears owns an affected R1200 GS and despite initial concerns, is now happy with his bike. “My bike had gaps bigger than 0.2mm at the fork tops,” he says. “It was a little scary to think what could have happened, especially considering how I had been using it only weeks before [off-road at the GS Trophy in Wales]. But, on the other hand, knowing how I had been using it, it didn’t fail. What I don’t know is if the gaps were there before I started using it off road or if they developed as a result of using it off road.”

But having seen BMW’s modification, Toby is reassured: “The addition of the steel sleeve, which is quite chunky, would offer a lot of support and strength to prevent the top of the stanchion deforming. I feel better having thought it through. I think the fix is good.”

Here is an excellent video by BMW dealer Riders of Cardiff, showing exactly what the problem is, and the recall work:


Have you been affected by the R1200 GS and Adventure fork issue? What do you think of BMW’s response? Are you happy with the fix? Let us know below.



BMW Motorrad UK’s statement in full :

Media statement: BMW R 1200 GS and GS Adventure fork stanchion safety recall

As part of a safety recall, BMW Motorrad is checking the fixed fork tubes R 1200 GS and R 1200 GS Adventure motorcycles from the production period November 2013 to June 2017.

All affected bikes will be retrofitted with an additional fixed fork tube bush. If there is already any signs of preliminary damage, the fixed fork tubes will be replaced by modified new parts.

BMW Motorrad has determined during ongoing field observations that the fixed fork tube of the specified models can suffer damage, due to unusual incidents with momentary high stress, without the user noticing. Potential preliminary damage to the fixed fork tube manifests itself through a gap between the pipe and the pressed-in, top seal plugs.

If the fit of the pressed-in seal plug has loosened, the gap may increase through longer, high-stress usage. This may lead to oil leaks and noise. If these signals are not perceived, or are ignored, and further high-stress incidents occur, the plug may become completely loose. Subsequently, critical driving conditions cannot be ruled out.

BMW Motorrad has therefore decided to recall all motorcycles that could be affected to retrofit the fixed fork tube bushes. The owners of these motorcycles will be informed by BMW Motorrad. The safety recall is carried out for free for the customer at approved BMW Motorrad service centres.
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  #191  
Old 17th July 2017, 04:19 PM
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Default Re: Another BMW recall (2003-2011 bikes)

You use all your copy and paste quota for the year there bai!!
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  #192  
Old 17th July 2017, 08:54 PM
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Default Re: Another BMW recall (2003-2011 bikes)

All that collar is doing is moving the problem from one place to another. The lateral movement is still there. It'll just apply the same stress to the next weakest point, which will probably be the bolt that holds the stanchion to the top yoke.
It's probably only a matter of time before something else gives.

The simple fact is, BMW have fucked up big time, and they know it. The lateral pressure on the top of those forks must be massive, hence the thickness of that collar. But the collar isn't a fix. A fix means finding what caused the problem and addressing it, but what caused the problem in this case is that ridiculous front end, and the only way to fix it is to go back to the drawing board and start from scratch. Which means it isn't going to happen any time soon, because BMW don't like to admit they haven't a clue how to build bikes.
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  #193  
Old 17th July 2017, 09:05 PM
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Default Re: Another BMW recall (2003-2011 bikes)

Originally Posted by Gixxer
BMW don't like to admit they haven't a clue how to build bikes.
And they've spent the last 20 years trying to convince us that everyone else was doing it wrong.
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  #194  
Old 17th July 2017, 09:32 PM
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Default Re: Another BMW recall (2003-2011 bikes)

If their technology was any good it would have been copied. Instead BMW are struggling to catch up. Yamaha tried to get rid of front forks in the 1990s, and they don't like to talk about it any more. They, like BMW also had the engine as part of the frame, but seem to have gone back to using a frame as the frame since...
The Legacy of BMW ABS is still something that scares people off. Honda had issues with ABS on the CBR and Pan European, but fixed it properly so few even remember it being an issue.
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  #195  
Old 17th July 2017, 10:38 PM
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Default Re: Another BMW recall (2003-2011 bikes)

Lads, lets get one thing straight here. The gs' before the water cooled models did not have this problem. It's a new problem. It's a fucking disgrace but it's a new problem.

As for you dirtyshirt, the paralever front end is fucking excellent at what it does and a lot of us like it. Saying that, I would not touch a watercooled toilet with a barge pole.
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  #196  
Old 18th July 2017, 09:08 AM
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Default Re: Another BMW recall (2003-2011 bikes)

Originally Posted by Dirtyshirt
They, like BMW also had the engine as part of the frame, but seem to have gone back to using a frame as the frame since..
Plenty of bikes use the engine as part of the frame
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  #197  
Old 18th July 2017, 09:40 AM
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Default Re: Another BMW recall (2003-2011 bikes)

If you look at the video, how many dealers will have that retro-fit machine ?



Regardless of what manufacturer this is , not a hope id entrust my life with that type of a fix. Surely a closed fork ( with the fix part of the actual stansion structure ) would be better ? Im no engineer, but a steel washer sleeved over the issue cant be 100% a guarantee ?

Last edited by Duke RR; 18th July 2017 at 09:42 AM.
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  #198  
Old 18th July 2017, 10:56 AM
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Default Re: Another BMW recall (2003-2011 bikes)

I'm not familiar with the details and never rode a BMW. However, it seems that some people are confusing issues here.

The fix for the Telelever stanchion looks like it will work if the failure is due to the stanchion being too thin-walled for the load. I see they have tapered the outside of the bush to reduce the stress riser.

The maximum stress isn't very hard to calculate once you have the data, so why this wasn't realised by the designers is not clear. However, as a design engineer myself, I know that what seems obvious in retrospect may be difficult to predict in advance so I make no judgement on their competence. I expect, since they have seen the problem, they did the sums and concluded this fix will work.

The Telelever front end has advantages over telescopic forks for riders who are not world class racers (i.e. virtually everyone who buys a BMW to ride on the road), so a dismissing the concept because of a detail design flaw is unreasonable. I have some other reservations about the BMW implementation, but that's off topic for this thread.

While Japanese bikes (my preference) are mainly reliable and as safe as any other bike, they too have had issues. Suzuki with GSXR frames cracking and Hayabusa rear subframes breaking which were design flaws, for example. I currently ride a Suzuki, Honda and Kawasaki myself and am generally happy with them, despite some issues with them all. They generally behave as expected, taking account of their ages and price I paid. Everything can be improved upon.

From the threads, it doesn't seem that BMW were pro-active, but I'm not familiar enough with the details to make that call.
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  #199  
Old 18th July 2017, 11:52 AM
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Default Re: Another BMW recall (2003-2011 bikes)

Originally Posted by Quasiff

The fix for the Telelever stanchion looks like it will work if the failure is due to the stanchion being too thin-walled for the load. I see they have tapered the outside of the bush to reduce the stress riser.

.
A fix would be a full stanchion change out, a stanchion that has adequate wall thickness and designed for spike stress loading with reasonable to good factor of safety considering its a safety critical component. This is not a fix but a damage limitation exercise, nothing more than a mere legal obligation to cover themselves....

A thin wall stanchion that has this so called sleeve fitted?? Forget it!!....Gixxer has correctly highlighted what about the load transfer when this is put to its limit...you have to wonder what is the next weakest link in the design considering this thin walled stanchion....I don't buy it.

Its far from convincing when you think about the money that these bikes command...not for me thanks....

Last edited by HIGHSIDER; 18th July 2017 at 12:06 PM.
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  #200  
Old 18th July 2017, 12:15 PM
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Default Re: Another BMW recall (2003-2011 bikes)

Originally Posted by HIGHSIDER
A fix would be a full stanchion change out, a stanchion that has adequate wall thickness and designed for spike stress loading with reasonable to good factor of safety considering its a safety critical component. This is not a fix but a damage limitation exercise, nothing more than a mere legal obligation to cover themselves....

A thin wall stanchion that has this so called sleeve fitted?? Forget it!!....Gixxer has correctly highlighted what about the load transfer when this is put to its limit...you have to wonder what is the next weakest link in the design considering this thin walled stanchion....I don't buy.

Its far from convincing when you think about the money that these bikes command...not for me thanks....
You may be right, but without doing the analysis, you cannot know whether or not the fix is adequate. Requiring a thicker wall in the less stressed areas of the stanchion adds weight where it isn't required and would need to be shown to improve the situation. Given the resources available to BMW, I expect (hope) they did the analysis and concluded that their fix works. The price of the bikes is irrelevant. The fix should work or it's not a fix.
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